Home Page

THREAD # 6: "Nazi Race Hate on Our Forum, petition to unregister"

DATE/TIME: Feb 1 2005, 03:30 PM
TITLE: Nazi Race Hate on Our Forum, petition to unregister
POSTER: Shanet Clark
THREAD WAS STARTED BY: Shanet Clark
REPLIED TO: N/a

Click on the false alias "Salvatore Astucia" (anywhere it is underlined)

Go to his bio page and review his postings.

Click into his commercial sales links of his book and review these links.

PETITION TO UNREGISTER
THE ANTI-SEMITIC RACE HATE
SPEWING FROM THIS FALSE
ALIAS & ED/FORUM MEMBER

SHANET CLARK

--------------------

Biography: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1900

DATE/TIME: Feb 1 2005, 03:44 PM
TITLE: Nazi Race Hate on Our Forum, petition to unregister
POSTER: John Simkin (Moderator)
THREAD WAS STARTED BY: Shanet Clark
REPLIED TO: Shanet Clark

This issue has already been dealt with here:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=3070

--------------------

John Simkin
Biography: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1365
General Website: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk
JFK Website: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKindex.htm
Operation Mockingbird: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmockingbird.htm

DATE/TIME: Feb 1 2005, 03:52 PM
TITLE: Nazi Race Hate on Our Forum, petition to unregister
POSTER: Shanet Clark
THREAD WAS STARTED BY: Shanet Clark
REPLIED TO: John Simkin (Moderator) and all members

THOSE WHO agree with my position please post your support on this thread.

The ALIAS itself is a violation.
This ALIAS has accused me of being a "fanatical Zionist."
One thread has already been removed.

LBJ's background can never be rationally presented by an ALIAS
who pretends to believe that Israel dropped nuclear weapons
near Thailand ---- and triggered the tsunamis. (see link-posted material)

His Kennedy theory centers on the Jews, and is simply inflammatory hatred.

My standards for collegial inclusion and co-operation
are much more rigorous than this ....

DAVID SHANET CLARK, ATLANTA GEORGIA

WILLIAM RANDOLPH HEARST / UNITED STATES SENATE SCHOLAR
WOODRUFF FELLOWSHIP IN HISTORY
HONORS HISTORY GPC STUDENT OF THE YEAR
ORGANIZATION OF AMERICAN HISTORIANS
AMERICAN HISTORICAL ASSOCIATION
SOUTHERN HISTORICAL ASSOCIATION
NATIONAL COUNCIL HISTORICAL EDUCATION
NEW ENGLAND HISTORICAL SOCIETY

This post has been edited by Shanet Clark: Feb 1 2005, 04:42 PM

--------------------

Biography: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1900

DATE/TIME: Feb 1 2005, 07:19 PM
TITLE: Nazi Race Hate on Our Forum, petition to unregister
POSTER: Gary Buell
THREAD WAS STARTED BY: Shanet Clark
REPLIED TO: Shanet Clark

I share your concerns. Looking at his website Salvador would appear to be a Holocaust Revisionist and probably a neo-Nazi as well.

--------------------

Biography: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1631

http://coverthistory.blogspot.com

DATE/TIME: Feb 1 2005, 07:56 PM
TITLE: Nazi Race Hate on Our Forum, petition to unregister
POSTER: Andy Walker (Moderator)
THREAD WAS STARTED BY: Shanet Clark
REPLIED TO: Gary Buell

I am monitoring this closely.
Our Board Guidelines are very clear
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?act=boardrules

Members however will not be removed on the grounds of what they might say in the future or for what they have said somewhere else.

--------------------

Andy Walker
http://www.learningonline.me.uk
http://www.historygcse.org
Dartford Technology College
Andy Walker's Biography

DATE/TIME: Feb 1 2005, 08:20 PM
TITLE: Nazi Race Hate on Our Forum, petition to unregister
POSTER: Salvador Astucia
THREAD WAS STARTED BY: Shanet Clark
REPLIED TO: Gary Buell and the Moderators (John Simkin and Andy Walker)

Gary:

You and other people keep bringing up issues that I have not mentioned in this forum. In an American court of law, if an attorney for one side brings up a particular topic, then discussion on that topic is fair game for the opposing attorney. Why did you mention Holocaust Revisionism? Are you willing to discuss it? If this were a court of law, your comment would make the Holocaust a topic of open debate.

So I will put it to the moderators. Will you (moderators) grant me permission--in advance--to start a discussion thread about Holocaust Revisionism? The main topics of discussion would be as follows:

- Is the death count (six million Jews) accurate?

- Were gas chambers the primary means of killing inmates in Nazi camps?

Seriously, I do not expect the moderators to allow such a discussion, regardless of any evidence I might produce. But sometimes making a request is just as important as the response received. I only ask the question because Mr. Buell introduced the topic of the Holocaust as a means of discrediting me. But if given an opportunity to back up his comments with evidence, I have every confidence that he would suddenly fall mute.

Regards.

Salvador Astucia

[NOTE: On Feb 1 2005, at 10:24 PM, Shanet Clark started a thread entitled "The Holocaust 1933-1945" and challenged Salvador Astucia to debate the topic. Three minutes after Mr. Clark's had created the Holocaust thread, Gary Buell replied to Mr. Astucia on the same thread, "Nazi Race Hate on Our Forum, petition to unregister." Mr. Buell refused to discuss the Holocuast, but asked Mr. Astucia if he believed Hitler was an evil. Mr. Astucia refused to discuss Hitler or the Holocaust unless given permission by the moderators in advance. Moderator Andy Walker then told Mr. Astucia he was free to discuss anything as long as he did not violate any Forum Rules. Unfortunately, the Forum Rules more or less stated that it was a violation to deny the Holocaust, and Mr. Walker made it clear that any critical comments about the official Holocaust were considered Holocaust denial. Hence, there was no way Mr. Astucia would be able to discuss the Holocaust without have his membership revoked as a consequence. Mr. Astucia saw the trap that was being set and refused to discuss the Holocaust because he was not protected by the Forum's rules. Nevertheless, Mr. Walker revoked his posting priviledge using the pretext that Mr. Astucia had been posting messages from too many different IP addresses.]

DATE/TIME: Feb 1 2005, 10:27 PM
TITLE: Nazi Race Hate on Our Forum, petition to unregister
POSTER: Gary Buell
THREAD WAS STARTED BY: Shanet Clark
REPLIED TO: Salvador Astucia

You are correct in that I am not going to debate the Holocaust with you. I would like to ask you about this passage from your website however, from the About the Author section:

He always assumed Adolf Hitler was an evil man because that was what he had been taught. When curiosity prompted him to read books on the topic of Israel, the Jewish culture, and Zionism, he experienced a bit of an epiphany.

So you do not believe that Hitler was an evil man?

--------------------

Biography: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1631

http://coverthistory.blogspot.com

DATE/TIME: Feb 1 2005, 10:53 PM
TITLE: Nazi Race Hate on Our Forum, petition to unregister
POSTER: Salvador Astucia
THREAD WAS STARTED BY: Shanet Clark
REPLIED TO: Gary Buell

I refuse to discuss anything about Adolf Hitler on this Forum without advance permission from the moderators. From what I have observed, several Forum members lack the maturity to engage in a serious historical discussion about the most hated man of the Twentieth Century.

Also, since you have openly refused to debate the Holocaust with me under any circumstance (even if the moderators give us a green light, which I seriously doubt they would ever do), why do you continually ask questions about it?

Isn't this another form of entrapment?

Salvador Astucia

DATE/TIME: Feb 1 2005, 11:21 PM
TITLE: Nazi Race Hate on Our Forum, petition to unregister
POSTER: Andy Walker (Moderator)
THREAD WAS STARTED BY: Shanet Clark
REPLIED TO: Salvador Astucia

Members are free to discuss any issues pertaining to education they wish on this forum so long as they do so within the broad parameters of our BOARD RULES.

[NOTE: Mr. Walker placed a hyperlink to the words "BOARD RULES" which took readers to the following URL: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?act=boardrules. The stated URL too readers to the following Board Rules page for the Education Forum:

Board Guidelines
"This board has been set up to establish friendly communication and collaboration between teachers and educators around the world...

Unlike many discussion forums we do not allow anonymity on the Education Forum. For our aims to be met we must know who you are! Members are required to register using their real name or part thereof and to sign in at Biographical details. If for some reason a member feels they cannot reveal their identity they should contact the administrators who will assess each case on its merits. Anonymous accounts may be set up by the Administrators if in their judgement it is an appropriate action

You are responsible for what you post on this board. You will not use this bulletin board to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law.

You must not post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this bulletin board.

Members who fail to abide by these simple guidelines will have their membership rescinded and their posts deleted.

Limitation of Liability

IN NO EVENT WILL THE ADMINISTATORS OF THE EDUCATION FORUM BE LIABLE FOR ANY DAMAGE WHATSOEVER (INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION DAMAGES RELATING TO LOST REVENUES OR PROFITS, LOST DATA, WORK STOPPAGE, COMPUTER FAILURE OR MALFUNCTION) RESULTING FROM OR IN ANY WAY RELATED TO THE USE OF ANY MATERIALS POSTED ON OR MADE AVAILABLE IN THE DISCUSSION FORUMS OR ANY OTHER WEB SITE TO WHICH A LNK IS PROVIDED OR ON WHICH A LINK IS PROVIDED TO THESE DISCUSSION FORUMS, EVEN IF THE ADMINISTRATING TEAM HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES AND REGARDLESS OF THE LEGAL THEORY ON WHICH SUCH DAMAGES ARE BASED."

Andy Walker 2004
John Simkin
Richard Jones-Nerzic]

--------------------

Andy Walker
http://www.learningonline.me.uk
http://www.historygcse.org
Dartford Technology College
Andy Walker's Biography

DATE/TIME: Feb 1 2005, 11:49 PM
TITLE: Nazi Race Hate on Our Forum, petition to unregister
POSTER: Salvador Astucia
THREAD WAS STARTED BY: Shanet Clark
REPLIED TO: Andy Walker (MODERATOR)

Thanks for the green light, Andy, but I looked at the Board Rules, and there's a phrase that bothers me.

Here is the main sentence from the Board Rules which I think would apply to a discussion about Adolf Hitler and/or the Holocaust:

"You are responsible for what you post on this board. You will not use this bulletin board to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law."

The last phrase is troubling: "or otherwise violative of any law." If we limit that phrase to American law, the verbiage isn't a problem because we Americans enjoy the First Amendment which protects our free speech. But other countries (Canada, Germany, France, even Austrialia) have special laws about hate speech which severely limit open discussions about the Holocaust and Hitler. Theoretically, the moment I give any opinion about gas chambers or challenge the death count, the moderators could kick me out of this forum and be completely in accordance with the Board Rules. Under the present Board Rules, they could do this even if I would supply verifiable evidence to support every statement I make. Therein lies the difference between truth and law. Laws are manmade. Truth is a divine force.

Unless the moderators are willing to define special guidelines for discussing the Holocaust and Hitler, I cannot speak openly about these topics because the Board Rules are stacked against free speech, in this particular instance that is.

Respectfully,

Salvador Astucia

[NOTE: Andy Walker (MODERATOR) immediately put Salvador's Account on hold and did not post most of his messages after this message (Feb 1 2005, 11:49 PM) wherein Mr. Astucia refused, for a second time, to discuss Adolf Hitler and/or the Holocaust. The next day, Feb 2 2005, Mr. Walker admitted that he had placed Mr. Astucia's account under "moderator supervision," but he claimed he only did it because I had sent messages from five different IP Addresses.]

DATE/TIME: Feb 2 2005, 01:21 PM
TITLE: Nazi Race Hate on Our Forum, petition to unregister
POSTER: Andy Walker (MODERATOR)
THREAD WAS STARTED BY: Shanet Clark
REPLIED TO: John Simkin (MODERATOR)

Just for the record I placed Salvador under moderator supervision because over the last 4 days he has posted from 5 seperate IPs. I was concerned that the account was being shared. This has been done to us by a right wing group in the past.

Either John or myself will moderate his postings when we have time.

I work full time as a teacher in a school - Salvador is not really my priority at the moment.

It's many years since I have deserved the label "gutless"

[NOTE: When Salvador Astucia realized his messages were not being posted, he sent a strongly worded email to moderator John Simkin, which Simkin posted and claimed Mr. Astucia was being unreasonable by sending such a rude email. Here is Mr. Astucia's email:

"John Simkin: Your fellow propagandist, Andy Walker, has essentially revoked my posting privileges, although he claims he's merely monitoring my posts. The bottom line is my messages are not being posted on the message board. So in effect, it equivalent to having one's privileges revoked. Frankly, it was a gutless move. He's giving people the false impression that I left voluntarily, so he can claim he runs an open forum. Even for an obvious propaganda operation, your forum is really bad. Not just flawed. It's very bad. It's worse than the Usenet. And your moderating abilities? The worst. Poor. Very poor. Perhaps you should consider retirement. Seriously.

Salvador Astucia"

On Feb 2 2005, at 12:49 PM, John Simkin posted my private email in an obvious attempt to portray himself as a victim:

"I thought you might be interested in this email I have just received from Salvador Astucia. Hopefully, you will now understand how we were trying to handle a difficult situation."]

DATE/TIME: Feb 1 2005, 11:50 PM
TITLE: Nazi Race Hate on Our Forum, petition to unregister
POSTER: Gibson Vendettuoli
THREAD WAS STARTED BY: Shanet Clark
REPLIED TO: Salvador Astucia

Mr. Astucia, I certainly didn't agree with your views at first, though you may have something on the Lennon case. But this is absolutely outlandish. I am not by any means pro-Semitic, but I am not by any means anti-Semitic either. I feel, if you offend enough people, you should be removed. And you've done that much.

I agree with some of your theories, but this blatant neo-nazi stuff is just too much, be it on this forum or elsewhere; it's still the same racist position that offends people. I know Shanet would agree.

Therefore, I am temporarily ceasing posts from the forum after I have seen more of your posts. I was already stopping after Mr. Dankbaar left, but now...well, this situation is far worse.

G

--------------------

Biography: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1838
Websites: http://johnandgeorge.arecool.net, GibCo Enterprises

DATE/TIME: Feb 2 2005, 12:11 AM
TITLE: Nazi Race Hate on Our Forum, petition to unregister
POSTER: Salvador Astucia
THREAD WAS STARTED BY: Shanet Clark
REPLIED TO: Gibson Vendettuoli

I have no idea what you are referring to since I have not stated a single opinion on this forum about the Holocaust, Hitler or the Nazis. One can only imagine how you would react if I actually did.

Salvador Astucia

(NOTE: Lots of comments were made about the Holocaust by various people. One individual, Don Jeffries, posted extensive remarks in support of Revisionist Ernst Zundel, and no one called him anti-Semitic for some reason, although his account was eventually revoked.)

DATE/TIME: Feb 2 2005, 03:34 PM
TITLE: Nazi Race Hate on Our Forum, petition to unregister
POSTER: Don Jeffries
THREAD WAS STARTED BY: Shanet Clark
REPLIED TO: Everyone

I hesitate to post my comments, at the risk of being branded a "nazi," but here goes. First of all, let me say that this is John's forum, and he certainly has the right to set the rules. I appreciate very much his efforts and value the forum as an educational tool. That being said, I also believe completely in free speech and a free press. The whole issue of WWII has become increasingly sacrosanct, even among those who are willing to debate and discuss the most controversial topics imaginable. This does not merely apply to the holocaust, but to such tangential issues like Pearl Harbor, and the increasingly obvious indications that FDR had advance knowledge and/or goaded the Japanese into attacking us. The level of debate in such cases is best summed up by the reaction of historian Barbara Tuchman, whose idea of rebutal was to state, "Toland is a nazi," after Pulitzer Prize winning historian John Toland wandered into the revisionist waters with his "Infamy" book about FDR's role in allowing the Japanese attack to happen. I had to read "Infamy," after reading Tuchman's vicious and infantile response to Toland's well- researched and thoroughly documented work. It convinced me. If that makes me a nazi, or perhaps a "jap" somehow, then so be it.

I am therefore sympathetic to any revisionist claims about any historical incident. It bothers me that so many otherwise open-minded people want to exempt this one particular historical event from free discussion. Why? If the case for the nazis exterminating six million jews is so convincing, then the debate ought to be quick and easy. Calling those who dispute any particular part of history a "nazi" or "anti-semitic" or "racist," or whatever, isn't constructive and frankly diminishes your own credibility.

I am still a novice to this whole subject, but I have taken the first step in examining this subject in at least some depth. Many of you may not be aware of the plight of one Ernst Zundel, a former Canadian teacher who is, believe it or not, in his second year of SOLITARY CONFINEMENT in a Canadian prison. His crime; he "denies the holocaust." BTW, what kind of bizarre, Orwellian term is that? That sounds like a term from the middle ages for those who denied the church or something. When I first heard about this, I was appalled, even though I thought he was probably a nut to deny the nazi atrocities. While reading about Zundel's history (he has already been tried twice for this "crime"), I discovered that he had commissioned an expert, during his first trial, to go to Auschwitz and examine the gas chambers, the soil, and anything else what could prove or disprove that the exterminations had taken place. The guy's name was Fred Leuchter, and he was not a nazi, an anti-semite, or political at all. He was considered the nation's foremost expert on capital punishment devices, having consulted with many prisons and advised them about their gas chamber systems and electric chairs. To make a long story short, Leuchter came away convinced that no gassings had taken place at Auschwitz. He wrote the "Leuchter Report" afterwards, and if you are really interested in historical truth, then I urge you to read it. I think it can be read in its entirety (it's not that long) online. If you just use a search engine, you should be able to find it easily.

I hope that I will not be banned from this forum for speaking out. I don't know Mr. Astucia at all, but I do support everyone's right to free speech. Unless someone is coming out and advocating the extermination of a particular race of people, or saying that a particular group of people ought to be rounded up and imprisoned because of their race, religion, height, weight, or whatever, and as long as they aren't vulgar or incomprehensible in their arguments, then I think responsible people who hold a different view ought to feel free to engage them in civil discourse.

BTW- for the record, I don't admire Adolf Hitler. I don't think the nazis were cool. I don't like heiling anyone and woudn't want a dictator ruling me. That being said, I think the historical revisionists may have some valid points and they shouldn't be thrown in jail, or legally penalized in any way, for stating them. I also think that suppressing these views plays into the hands of real anti-Jewish feeling; if you believe "the jews" control the world, then this feeling will reinforced by name-calling and censorship. Anyhow, those are my feelings. Now please be kind....

(NOTE: Don Jeffries led an interesting discussion about Revisionist Ernst Zundel, an outspoken but non-violent Revisionist who was in a Canadian prison for the offense of denying the Holocaust. Salvador Astucia was unable to contribute to the discussion because none of his comments made it to the discussion board at that point, although his account was still active. He could log in, but the moderators were preventing virtually all of his comments from being made public. On March 1, 2005, Zundel was deported secretly and whisked by chartered plane to Germany for prosecution, where laws against hate speech are quite severe. At some point Don Jeffries' account was unregistered, but it is unclear what happened to him.)

DATE/TIME: Feb 10 2005, 11:20 AM
TITLE: Nazi Race Hate on Our Forum, petition to unregister
POSTER: John Simkin (Moderator)
THREAD WAS STARTED BY: Shanet Clark
REPLIED TO: Everyone

Salvador Astucia has been removed from this Forum. Not because of his postings, although the moderators had to edit out his racist comments. He has been removed because he has used his website to make libellous attacks on Forum members. He is also urging people to complain to the UK Department of Education in order to get the Forum taken down (he is under the mistaken impression that this Forum is funded by the UK government). A tactic previously employed by the other supporter of free speech, Bob Vernon.

He got very angry a few weeks ago when Gibson revealed the true identity of Salvador Astucia. His research was obviously correct. As he has published pictures of several members of the Forum on his website, maybe we should publish his real name and photograph on this Forum. What do people think?

--------------------

John Simkin
Biography: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1365
General Website: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk
JFK Website: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKindex.htm
Operation Mockingbird: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmockingbird.htm

DATE/TIME: Feb 10 2005, 02:39 PM
TITLE: Nazi Race Hate on Our Forum, petition to unregister
POSTER: Andy Walker (Moderator)
THREAD WAS STARTED BY: Shanet Clark
REPLIED TO: John Simkin (Moderator)

I haven't a problem with "outing" him.
I am sure some of his customers would be interested in learning what sort of a person they are dealing with.
I will wait to see what others think.

--------------------

Andy Walker
http://www.learningonline.me.uk
http://www.historygcse.org
Dartford Technology College
Andy Walker's Biography

DATE/TIME: Feb 10 2005, 06:17 PM
TITLE: Nazi Race Hate on Our Forum, petition to unregister
POSTER: Greg Wagner
THREAD WAS STARTED BY: Shanet Clark
REPLIED TO: Andy Walker (Moderator)

Out him! If he's attacking members of this forum, we deserve to know exactly who we are up against. :box

--------------------

Biography: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=3252

DATE/TIME: Feb 10 2005, 08:11 PM
TITLE: Nazi Race Hate on Our Forum, petition to unregister
POSTER: Shanet Clark
THREAD WAS STARTED BY: Shanet Clark
REPLIED TO: Andy Walker (Moderator)

Shanet Clark Feb 10 2005, 08:11 PM

Content aside, his anonymity was the real problem for me. He should be exposed and roundly publicized....

--------------------

Biography: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1900

DATE/TIME: Feb 11 2005, 12:26 AM
TITLE: Nazi Race Hate on Our Forum, petition to unregister
POSTER: Andy Walker (Moderator)
THREAD WAS STARTED BY: Shanet Clark
REPLIED TO: Shanet Clark

The real name of this depressingly hopeless egotist has never been in doubt.

On 1st February Ian Kerr made This post and within minutes I received a furious e-mail from "Salvador" complaining that his real name was being bandied about on the forum.

Since then Gibson has done some great work establishing which [so-called real name of Salvador Astucia] we are dealing with.

The evidence would suggest that this is our man. The observant will notice similarities in the design of this rather uninteresting FrontPage site and the nasty anti Semitic JFK one belonging to "Salvador."

Incidentally most of "Salvador's" [deleted references made by Andy Walker to Salvador Astucia's employer], so I guess there is where he "works".

None of this would have been necessary had Mr [Astucia] not uploaded scurrilous, libellous and outrageously inaccurate allegations about John, Shanet and myself on 5th February on a his bilious racist nonsense of a website. (I have no desire to advertise this crapulent website further here).

Members please rest assured that this individual will be deleted for good from this forum within the next few moments.

He is a fool who obviously feeds on the oxygen of publicity. He will got no more of this here.

--------------------

Andy Walker
http://www.learningonline.me.uk
http://www.historygcse.org
Dartford Technology College
Andy Walker's Biography

Salvador Astucia has written a book, Opium Lords, which deals with the opium-rich Golden Triangle and how it was used to pay the men who killed President John F. Kennedy. Astucia has written a second book, Rethinking John Lennon's Assassination: The FBI's War on Rock Stars. To read either or purchase, click here:

http://www.jfkmontreal.com

Back to Reigel article

Home Page

NEXT ==>
PREVIOUS <==